The Editing Process

[malenkayacherepakha]

Editing my own works isn't something I do very well - I read things over of course and make the odd minor change, but I've never done a proper critical edit of my fic. I want to improve my writing though, and I've got a couple of fics in the pipeline that I hope have the potential to be really good, and good editing is going to help a lot with that.

So, I thought I'd see what wisdom all the brilliant writers on here have to share!
What do you look for when you edit (or beta!)?
How does your editing process (or beta process) work?

Any thoughts are massively appreciated!

Comments

[pauraque]

For me the most important thing is getting some distance before I try to self-edit. After finishing a draft, I try to give it at least a few days of not looking at or thinking about the fic at all, and then go back to it. (Longer would probably be even better, but those pesky deadlines...) The better I can simulate the experience of reading it for the first time, the more likely it is I'll catch mistakes or confusing aspects, and be less biased by my own knowledge of what I meant when I was writing.

As for what I look for, besides overt mistakes, I focus a lot on flow and pacing. I find it hard to get pacing right on the first draft. A paragraph that took me 15 minutes to write might only take 15 seconds to read, so I may have assumed that the fic spent enough time on some point when it really didn't. I look for areas where there should be a slow buildup or a sudden surprise, and make sure they actually read that way to someone who doesn't know what's supposed to happen.

I also do a lot of fiddling with the wording and structure of sentences and paragraphs, making sure I'm not reusing the same words too often or using awkward phrases that trip me up when I try to read them. (Reading out loud can help highlight these.) Then, if I've changed some section significantly, I go back to the beginning of the fic/scene and read it over for pacing again. I usually go through this process several times until I'm hardly changing anything on each read-through, and that's when I consider it done enough to go to beta.

But I think what you should look for in your editing process depends on what you think your own weaknesses are. If you know what you struggle with, you can be more effective at fixing it. (For example, I have a terrible habit of overusing semicolons and em-dashes, so during editing I look for them and take a lot out. But this isn't a problem everybody has!) When you look at your own older fics, what sorts of things stand out to you as things you could have done better? What kinds of advice and corrections do your beta-readers give you over and over?

The biggest thing that's made me better at self-editing is truly taking in the things my beta-readers have said, and generalizing them. Okay, I put too much detail in this one paragraph of this one fic, and now I fixed it... But maybe I want to keep that in the back of my mind for the next fic, and ask myself if I'm doing it again. What would my beta say about this paragraph? After a while, you can practically put your beta out of a job because you're catching all the things they would catch. (Though it's always still a good idea to use one, I think -- another set of eyes never stops being useful.)

[malenkayacherepakha]

This is really helpful, thank you for going into such detail!

The distance is so important, but as you say sometimes deadlines get in the way of that! I'm nearly at the deadline for my current fic but my next project doesn't have any deadlines, so I'll be taking advantage of that and leaving more time before editing.

Looking back at my older fics to see where the issues are is a great idea, I'm going to set aside some time to do that and essentially beta myself. I think part of my difficulty is that my betas have tended not to be very critical (often betas who I've found on the discord server just offer spag and not much more - maybe because there isn't necessarily a longer relationship there so there isn't as much comfort with being critical?). I'm going to be more explicit with my betas from now on that I actively welcome that criticism, but I can also try and pretend that I'm not the writer and criticise myself more too.

Thank you so much!

[pauraque]

Having beta-readers who will go beyond spag and dig deeper has been important for me. When I first started posting fic, I was lucky to find some betas who had a gift for giving perceptive and useful critique and shared it very generously. Not everybody has the insight to see how a story could be taken from good to great, and even if they do, not everybody knows how to articulate it in a helpful way. And, as you say, they may not be willing to risk it with a writer they don't know well.

One thing to try is asking people whose writing you admire if they'd be willing to critique your work. I know asking a specific person directly is more daunting than just asking for a volunteer, but it can be rewarding if they say yes!

[malenkayacherepakha]

I've had a couple of beta readers who've gone further with the criticism and I'm making a point now to tell my betas that I'm fine with it to hopefully combat that fear of upsetting me. And as you say, some people are very good at giving useful critique, so I want to keep building beta relationships with people who have done that for me in the past.

It's definitely scary asking for some I admire to look at my work, but I think it'll be worth it. I was actually thinking about doing that with the fic I'm currently working on as I writer I really admire expressed interest in it when I first picked the prompt, so I'll have to gather up my courage and ask if they're open to reading through it!

[james]

What I find works for me (hi wandering in through Network), is looking at the story in a different format -- even just a different font or opening it in a different program to change how the words are spread out on the screen. If you can print it out, that's also good -- forcing your brain to interact with it as if it weren't the same thing you've been staring at while writing is the key. Some people like to read a story out loud (but for me I tune out and don't really listen to myself sating words, but it can be a good way to notice if you left something important out or got redundant or something.)

I had the fortune to work with very good editors back in the 90s, and their little red marks taught me how to self-edit. You might take a look at some of the previous fannish auctions and see who offered up editing services -- maybe you can negotiate getting a short, older work done so you can see what sort of things they'd suggest changing.

[malenkayacherepakha]

Hi!

That's a really good idea - I'll have to see if our printer has any ink, but if not a different font is a good idea. It's definitely really easy to just kind of read what you want to read when it's in the same format, rather than actually reading what's on the page. I've done the reading outloud thing before, especially when I wrote essays at uni, and it seems to work alright for me, so I'll try that too.

That's a good thought - I am keen to get more critical beta work done on my fics as I'm sure it will help me get better at self-editing.

[icarusinflight]

What I look for in my own editing vs someone else's is majorly different. After my first draft I will really kind of rewrite my fics quite a bit. I find I put on about 20% WC wise in the editing process? One of the things I have found really helpful is that when I am doing it I actually use track changes in my own work, which sounds silly, but gives me a mental distance that is helpful. It can be annoying to have to then go back through and accept the changes, but it only really gets annoying on very long fics (Erised I see you). It's also helpful if I am not sure about a change I am making.

I've actually come to really love the self-edit process which surprises me. Still put it off every time though hahaha

[malenkayacherepakha]

That's really interesting, my fics tend to stay pretty similar between first draft and posting, but that's part of the reason why I feel like I could do better with editing!

I like the idea of tracking changes - I guess it can maybe make it feel a bit more like betaing someone else's work and it sounds very useful for changes you aren't quite sure about. I'm going to try it!

I love betaing for other people so I hope I can grow to like doing it for myself too.

[paulamcg]

Compared with pauraque’s excellent contribution above, I can now think of only a few superficial points. I write in a probably unusual manner, editing my text constantly, at least after each paragraph, and often reading from the beginning of the scene or from the very beginning. However, I agree that distance is important, and I prefer leaving the completed story for a few days before going over it all once, and only after that sending it to my beta, and when revising old fics, it’s a pleasure to see more clearly how the text can be improved.

I’ve noticed that when there’s not much distance in time, it helps to read the text in a form where the line breaks are different (like when I’ve pasted the uncompleted fic in a private post so as to read it at LJ or DW on my phone). That somehow helps me see the text as new and spot at least typos and also repetition.

(Remembering what my beta had to point out once) I check in particular that in the opening (of a scene) I give all the information a reader needs so as not to get any false ideas about where and when the story is set.

Like pauraque I’ve got the habit of reading my text aloud – listening and checking that it sounds fluent. However, it’s a bit disconcerting to know that a lot of readers only glance at each line or even take in a whole paragraph at one glance. Because I always both read and write slowly, I guess I need a beta to also check that the text works for that kind of reading, too.

(EDITED Oh, other excellent contributions have appeared while I was writing mine slowly!)

[malenkayacherepakha]

I've always seen advice saying not to edit as you go so it's really interesting that you find it works for you - a good reminder I guess that a lot of writing is about finding how you work best. I tend to write most of my fic without rereading what I've written before 😂

Ooh I hadn't thought about posting on DW or using my phone to see the words in a different context but I like it - I'll give it a try.

That's a great tip too.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I'm really enjoying learning about how everyone approaches it.

[paulamcg]

Thank you for starting this interesting conversation! I’m glad you can perhaps find my little tips useful, too.

I’ve recently made a post about editing because pink_ink asked about it in Top Five Meme. In the form of my favourite things about editing. it’s a bit exaggerated for fun. But yes, it’s always worked for me that I edit as I go. And doesn't magpie_fngrl mention the same technique? Even if you don’t want to try that, it’s great I’ve made you think you might try something else that’s unusual and against “rules”.

I make a private post so as to read online just because I want to reread the work in progress constantly, also on my way to work.

[malenkayacherepakha]

Ooh I'll have to go and check out your post! Yes you're definitely not the only one who edits as they go. Maybe I'll try it out when I start my next fic and I'm not under deadline pressure - it doesn't matter then if it makes me take a bit longer to write. I'm up for trying anything and everything!

[magpie_fngrl]

As a pantser, I'm big on editing and revision. The main thing I do is rereads. I edit as I go along, so I'll read from the top, making corrections here and there; when I get to a point that needs heavy revising, I'll do that, then I might reread from the top again to ensure it all works. Pacing is hard to judge for everyone; for me, my guide is my reread: I try to be alert to the tiniest feeling of boredom; it usually means I need to revise/tighten something.

I'm also a huge cutter. One of the most edifying exercises I've done is one where I had to cut my writing by x per cent (I can't remember now the exact percentage, not that it matters much). That might mean finding 200 words to remove in a 2k fic, which seems impossible at first, but it's not. During my editing, I'll cut all the "just" I keep writing, all the dialogue tags that aren't necessary. Another thing to do about prose is to search your doc for a word you know you're using a lot, say "looked". If you're me, you might end up with 100 instances in a short fic, where apparently every one looks at each other and nothing else LOL. Do it for words like "realised" (most times words like that can be cut), "really", "very" and any other filter words that give you nothing.

Reading aloud is a fantastic way to ensure flow. When you catch yourself stumbling over a sentence, it needs rewriting.

Writing well depends on reading well; what we read is what we write. I can usually tell by the first paragraph if a writer is experienced, and I can always tell if a writer has been reading only fanfic. This isn't about editing a specific story, more to learn about storytelling which will help you know what to look for when you edit: Find a few stories that make you think "this is the kind of writing I want to do, the kind that speaks to me" and read them closely. Study those works. If there's one piece of advice out of this long-ass comment I'm writing that I'd urge you to take, it's this: take the best writing you can find and break it open. Consider questions such as: what kind of obstacles does the author set before the HEA? How do they reach the resolution? How do they start a story? What do they leave out? What is my fave moment in that story, and how tf did they manage to leave me shaking on the floor? I've learned more from reading Captive Prince than from several MOOCs I took.

Distance and time is the best, although not always feasible. But even a few days suffice.

Final suggestion: def find a good beta. Find a friend who's a decent writer themselves and/or an ardent reader (of books, not just fic) and exchange beta services. You'll learn loads from doing beta, too. Also, you can ask questions such as: what didn't you like? What would you cut? Or things like: "would X character behave this way here?"

[malenkayacherepakha]

Yes it's stuff like pacing which is a bit harder to judge and explain (as opposed to grammar etc) which I struggle with, looking out for my reactions to each bit is a good tip.

Doing the drabble challenge on the drarry discord has made me practice my cutting skills a bit - it's hard to hit a specific word count - but I really like the sound of your exercise. It sounds painful in a good way! I know I use 'just' and filler words like 'looked' and 'started to' too much so I'm going to make a note to do a read through where I just focus on finding those words.

I totally agree on reading being so important for writing well. I've been trying to do something similar to what you describe when reading some of my favourite fics, and I've taken away a few things which I'm already trying to put into practice. I'm definitely going to set aside some time to really deconstruct some of my favourite writing though now, and really think about how they make the story work - this will be so helpful when I start to write my longer, more plotty fic.

(Also I'm seeing a lot about Captive Prince everywhere, sounds like I might need to get myself a copy!)

I'm definitely seeing the value of a good beta - recently I've had a couple (including Chris, Grace and Marina) who have really helped a lot, their comments have been really insightful and definitely made the fic a lot better. I've also been trying to up my beta game too (in cases where it's appreciated) to offer concrit that goes beyond just spag, and it's helping me think about how I might approach editing my writing in the same way. The more you think about things like this the more you realise how valuable a really good writer-beta relationship is!

I think it was you actually who reblogged something a few days ago about your writing only being as good as your beta, and people only being able to beta as well as they write (or something along those lines, I can't remember the exact wording), and that is part of what made me start thinking about this, I thought it was a really insightful comment that echoed a lot of what I'd been experiencing but hadn't been able to put into words.

[magpie_fngrl]

H-how have you not read CaPri yet?! Run to your nearest (virtual) library and see if they have an ebook. It's a phenomenal romance.

Ah yes, I remember that post! I reblogged it mainly as a response to something I see in fandom a lot: when they speak of concrit, people tend to say "My betas have given me concrit, and I trust them." And the mean person in me thinks "well, I've read your work and would hate to tell you so, but your beta isn't as awesome as you think." The post put it aptly: you can only critique at the level you're at. Not that people should allow unsolicited concrit, far from it, it's just something I've been thinking about, and that post put it into words.

Giving critique is as rewarding as accepting it, def. Consider this an open invitation for you to take any of my fics (maybe over 4-5k so it has some meat in it) and give me your critique. Good and bad; be brutal if you want. But be specific: we'll both learn more if you focus on the mechanics of it. I do allow concrit on AO3 (on the story, not writing craft).(I have a lot of thoughts about concrit, you might have gathered lol)

As for the filler words, don't rely on the read-through bc usually these words are invisible. Do an actual search. Word has the function and Google Docs I think. All the instances will be highlighted so you'll be able to see them at a glance. Not to mention that seeing the total number might put the fear of the Writing God in you and the next time you might catch yourself before writing "just" "really" (I use those two so much!)

[malenkayacherepakha]

I have no idea! I'll download it tonight.

Yeah reading that post was like a little lightbulb went on in my brain and made me understand something I'd struggled to articulate even in my thoughts before. It's very interesting and has definitely made me look at my beta relationships in a new light. I'm beta'ing a fic currently and trying to put some of the thoughts inspired by that post (and the comments on here!) into practice, and I think it's going to really improve the quality of my beta'ing. It's also made me rethink how I find my betas - I'm not sure putting a general call out on discord is going to get me the results I want for longer fics, I think I'll need to stick to asking people I know. I can see why people end up forming long term beta partnerships!

Oh thank you - that sounds like it could be a really helpful exercise! It'll definitely feel a bit strange - I'm not used to being 'allowed' to give concrit, especially not to authors who I admire, but I can imagine it'll help my writing so much. Once I'm done with the fest deadline I'm currently working to I'll have a go!

I'm open to you doing the same for any of my works too, by the way!

I'd be very interested in hearing more about your thoughts on concrit. I'm still in the process of turning my feelings on concrit into actual thoughts, if that makes sense, and am trying to figure out what *my* thoughts are without being swayed too much by the discourse around it on Tumblr. I definitely want to start getting more concrit, it's maybe the context that makes all the difference (ie if you decided to concrit one of my fics after this conversation or if a beta gives me concrit, that's fine, because I've asked and because I know you/my betas and know that you're a good writer).

Good point - I'll do a proper search!

[magpie_fngrl]

Omg do not get a random beta from discord for your serious stuff! I mean, they might be fantastic at betaing but they also ... might not.

[malenkayacherepakha]

Yeah I've stopped using them for anything but the smallest stuff that I don't care too much about - I've had some great betas from that but also some not so great ones, and the risk is too high for stuff I care a lot about. I totally see why a lot of authors have their little group of betas that they use over and over again, and I'm focusing on building those kind of relationships for myself.

[gracerene]

Agreed on a lot of what others have said here. I actually don't edit as I go at all, the one exception being if I've taken a long break from writing a longer fic, then I'll usually reread/edit what I've started with to find my voice again, otherwise, I write everything, or most everything out, and then go back and edit. For me, it's a lot of trusting my gut/instincts. If there is a section/sentence that is reading weirdly, if I feel like a characterization isn't quite coming through, etc. I'm probably right. Very often the things I've felt wibbly on but didn't feel like dealing with so hoped they were good enough were things my betas ended up pointing out.

For me, the biggest thing is finding people to look over my work. If it's longer than a one-shot, I'd like at least two, preferably three eyes on it. These should be people who you click with, who give the kind of feedback you're looking for. For me, that means squee included in the feedback, but also more than just squee and basic SpaG. Like magpie said, I find people who are good writers themselves and/or voracious readers (of more than just fanfic) make better betas, but not everybody is cut out for giving helpful feedback.

I'd also say, don't be so tied to anything that you're unwilling to part with it/cut it/change it if it's better for the story. There have been a number of times I've had to cut down or completely eliminate/change scenes/conversations etc that I loved and had put a lot of time into writing because they weren't working for the story. One thing I see a lot of with longer fics is a lot of unnecessary scenes that don't actually push the story forward, and it ends up really dragging down the pacing. You might love a particular conversation, but if it's not serving the central narrative, it might be better off being cut. And you can always rework them into little bonus scenes/codas if you really can't part with them. :D

[malenkayacherepakha]

That's a really interesting point about trusting your gut - and I can totally relate to feeling wibbly on things but not wanting to try and fix them!

I'm definitely thinking that a big part of the puzzle is working with the right people, and that's something I need to prioritise sorting out, especially as I move to work on a longer fic that I really want to get right. I'm slowly feeling out how I like to work with beta readers and part of that is definitely that I want more than just spag corrections (which seems to be mostly what you get with a beta requested from discord, I think because of the experience level and the lack of prior beta relationship). I've found the betas you've done for me really helpful! And I'm hoping that part of working out what kind of feedback I want will help me be a better beta for others too.

That's such good advice - it's so hard to put into practice sometimes, but I've definitely experienced those scenes that do nothing from the reader side, so I need to make sure I act on it from the writer side.

[magpie_fngrl]

I agree with everything Grace has said 247%. I've had it happen so many times too; betas always end up pointing out what I wasn't sure of, something that made me pause too. Never in my life has anyone pointed out to something I thought I'd done brilliantly and disagreed. Analysing your work (and others) and self-editing is also about honing that instinct.

Also, HARD same on fics being full of scenes that drag the pacing. Few 100k fics I've read deserved to be that length. Which is also why when you analyse fave works to see how they work, you should also (if not mainly) do it for pubbed books: they've been professionally edited.

[malenkayacherepakha]

Do you flag those bits to your betas or just wait and see if they pick them up without any prompting?

Looks like I'll have to set aside plenty of time for reading in the next few months - what a shame!

[magpie_fngrl]

No, I don't flag them.

[walgesang]

I admit I probably lean on my betas much more than I should to do the heavy lifting for me, but I have made a habit of reading fic aloud to myself to see if it "sounds" right.

A good habit has been to remind myself that it's okay to toss out things that don't seem to be working well or maybe an idea or scene that is better used in a future fic (don't toss it, save it!). I will often write out an entire first draft and make myself not self-edit until later. But as many people have said, sometimes the best editing process is what works for you!

[malenkayacherepakha]

Yeah I think in the past I've relied on my betas to do the vast majority of the editing and I want to change that a bit, particularly when I'm working with betas who are less comfortable giving criticism etc. I'm definitely going to put the reading aloud idea into practice.

I need to get a bit more ruthless with getting rid of stuff that doesn't work, and yes totally agree with saving it for another time!

100%, I'm gearing myself up to try out all of the wonderful suggestions in this thread until I find the process that works best for me.

[lightofdaye]

This is an interesting topic. I'll have to read through the responses myself because I am rubbish at edit, owing to combination of only writing short things and only writing right before or after a deadline.

[malenkayacherepakha]

The comments have all been *so* interesting and helpful, I definitely recommend having a read through!

[necessarian]

To be honest, I don't do a lot of editing on my fics, but I've played around a lot with editing original fiction so I reckon this advice can carry over to fic easily. The number one thing I look for on an edit is continuity. I find that keeping a separate document for the timeline is helpful, but also making bullet point list of important moments and threads of information, and noting down stuff as you reread. It's good to keep track of where you disclose certain information, whether it be about character or plot, to make sure you don't do anything twice, or in the wrong order, or miss something out entirely. This really helps with internal consistency, and streamlining the narrative!

For word-level edits, my best friend is CTRL+F. I like to reread and, if I find a good phrase, I CTRL+F it to make sure I haven't gone mad with power and repeated it. Other things to CTRL+F are filler words, and any other words you know you tend to overuse that are in danger of making the prose clunky and repetitive. Or if you find a nice, unusual word, search for that too to make sure you've used it sparingly, for impact.

If you want to bring out the big guns, nothing helps me quite like printing it out and going through with a brightly coloured ballpoint pen. It just changes my mindset somehow, to see it in print, and the act of editing by hand helps with physically internalising changes. This is not great for continuity edits, since you can't search/cross-reference easily, but it's really good for sentence- or paragraph-level edits. Moving stuff around, crossing stuff out, and rewriting sentences is a really visceral process that always leaves me with a stronger story afterwards. If you don't have access to a printer (I don't right now, stuck at home!) then changing the font is a really good alternative. Just forcing yourself to look at something as though it's new.

If in doubt, just keep rereading. New stuff will jump out at you every single time. Sometimes it's hard to know when to stop tbh - I come back to things I wrote months or years ago and keep tweaking. The only thing I can do to get myself to stop playing around with something is to post it haha

[malenkayacherepakha]

I'm definitely going to remember the separate timeline/details doc for my long fic, that sounds really useful - it's so easy to forget those smaller details and end up contradicting yourself.

I so wish I could print out the fic I'm currently editing - I'm itching to get that pen out! It feels so different to editing on a computer, and it definitely highlights things that otherwise my eyes skim right over. Like you I'm printerless now I'm stuck at home so will try the font tip for now.

Yes that's something I've found tricky before, especially if I don't really have a external deadline on a fic - when is something fully edited and done? I guess you just kind of have to go, that'll do and post it haha.